Cure Scarlet vs Phoenix Ikki (Pretty Cure vs Saint Seiya)
“Unless we’re playing Killer Instinct out here, I don’t get two life bars.”-IHeartJustice
Cure Scarlet, the Princess of Flames from Pretty Cure
Phoenix Ikki, the Avenging Flame of Saint Seiya
Once cold hearted and ruthless, these phoenix themed fighters have risen from their sins to become some of the greatest heroes of their respective worlds. But who’s flames would burn brighter in a Death Battle?
Before We Start…
For Cure Scarlet, what’s being used is fairly simple. The main series Go! Princess Pretty Cure, the tie in movie, and all other Pretty Cure related content be it other shows, movies ,manga, novels, etc.
Ikki is a bit more unusual. The Saint Seiya series operates under a multiverse, with multiple different timelines and outcomes for the main cast, each of which have their own set of content attached to them. For example, the anime for Saint Seiya goes from being just an adaptation of the manga, to a completely separate storyline that either rewrites major parts of the manga or straight up includes new ideas such as the completely original Asgard arc.
For this analysis we’ll be primarily focusing on the manga canon for Ikki. This would entail the main manga, its prequel Episode G, and the sequels Next Dimension, G Assassin, and G Requiem. While G Assassin and G Requiem are presented as “possible futures,” the events are designed to take place specifically after the story of the OG manga and Next Dimension, with Seiya’s status after being stabbed by Hades being a talking point for Seiya’s absence in the series.
Oher Saint Seiya media like the anime, Saint Seiya Omega, Saint Seiya Sho, and others will be used as supporting evidence for content in the manga, as they mostly operate under the same general power system and mechanics across said universes.
Background
Cure Scarlet
“The dream you cruelly locked in your cold cage. I shall reclaim it. You better be prepared!”
The Hope Kingdom is a pillar of strength, kindness, and obviously hope. Suffice to say, it would take a nationwide tragedy for a kingdom like this to fall into despair. That tragedy would come in the form of the disappearance of Akagi Towa, the princess and symbol of the Hope Kingdom.
Towa’s life was one initially full of bliss and prosperity. When she wasn’t blessing the citizens with endless amounts of positivity, she would often play violin with her brother Prince Kanata. The two would practice every day, with the dream that one day Towa would become a Grand Princess, leading her kingdom to an even bigger age of prosperity. Unfortunately for her, this dream would become the target for the Hope Kingdom’s greatest enemy: Dyspear. Knowing that she wanted to live up to her kingdom’s expectations, Dyspear lured the young Towa into the Forest of Despair with false promises of becoming the perfect princess. With their precious symbol gone, the entire Hope Kingdom fell into a slump, giving Dyspear the perfect opportunity to feed off the despair of the citizens, reviving herself and locking the entire kingdom away in a Cage of Despair.
Her plans wouldn’t stop there. With the princess captive, Dyspear planned on weaponizing her and turning the young girl into her greatest servant. Brainwashing her into believing she was her daughter, Towa would become the Black Princess Twilight. With her new identity, Twilight would be entrusted with two simple goals: To gather more despair to fuel her “mother”, and take out the Pretty Cure, a group of magical girls who had returned to put an end to her rule.
Fortunately, the Pretty Cure wouldn’t go down easy. Despite Twilight's insistence that she was the perfect princess, her power wasn’t enough to overcome the will of the Cures. The battle was becoming harsh, and she needed a new weapon to fully take on the trio of princesses. By sheer chance, she would find a Princess Perfume, the weapon used to access the power of a Pretty Cure. Despite initially being used to fuel her despair, it would be the key to fully unlocking her true self. After a confrontation with her brother Kanata, all of her memories and true feelings would resurface, breaking the brainwashing and returning Towa to her original form.
Despite being freed from Dyspear’s corruption, Towa wasn’t fully back to normal. The memories of the people she hurt as Twilight, combined with her brothers supposed sacrifice to save her caused her to shut in and begin to slowly fall back into despair. Luckily for her, her former enemies were unwilling to leave her behind in her lonesome. The Precure trio of Haruka, Minami, and Kirara would push her to not give in and remember the dream and pleasant memories she once had. With a resolve to atone and put an end to Dyspear, her Princess Perfume would activate in full, turning her into the fourth legendary Precure: Cure Scarlet.
The journey to fixing herself wouldn’t be easy and had some hiccups, but overtime Towa would find herself becoming adjusted to the new friends she gained from her time on Earth, even becoming a pillar of hope for them during their moments of weakness. The quartet would continue fighting against Despair, even finding and saving Kanata along the way (he had a memory problem but he got better). These experiences would grant her the support and power she needed to fully confront Dyspear once and for all. Despite the odds being against her, the support of not just her fellow Precure, but the allies of Earth and the remnants of the Hope Kingdom, would be the push she needed to fully unlock her Grand Princess form.
Achieving her dream after all this time, she would use her new gift to destroy Dyspear for good, unlocking the Door of Despair and freeing her citizens. Even though she would no longer be able to become a Pretty Cure and see her newfound friends after the battle, her dream would stay strong and allow her to become the best possible princess for the Hope Kingdom. It has been said though, that as long as she keeps her Dress Up Key, perhaps one day the Pretty Cure will unite again.
Phoenix Ikki
The road to becoming a Saint isn’t easy. It requires a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and in some cases death. It’s no surprise that each up and coming bronze Saint would go through loads of trials to become a Saint, but the steps Ikki would take to get there would be somehow even worse than the average man.
Orphaned at a young age, Ikki was always very protective of his younger brother Shun, in part due to Shun’s more passive personality. This drive to protect Shun would manifest when it came time to train to become a Saint of Athena. Shun was scheduled to not just train at any place, but the infamous Death Queen Island, or more accurately “Hell on Earth.” The island would constantly burn year round, with rain that corrodes the skin and a sun that melts down on the inhabitants every day. Being the most dangerous training ground, Ikki rightfully believed it was too dangerous for Shun, and proceeded to swap places with his younger brother. With a sadistic master fostering his hate every day he was on the island, Ikki slowly began to lose his sanity and became more accustomed to his darker elements. His only saving grace would be a love interest by the name of Esmeralda, who happened to look similar to his brother Shun.
So naturally Esmeralda was killed by his master to further his hatred! To make matters even worse, Ikki learned the sick twisted man responsible for sending all of these Saints around the world was actually his father! The father of all of the orphans at that! Ikki would kill his master and proceed to perform a complete take over of the island, assembling his crew of Black Saints with the goal of waging war on the world by taking the Sagittarius Cloth being held at the Galaxy Tournament. Donning the Phoenix Cloth, Phoenix Ikki was born. His new path would be paved by the flames of hatred and rage, as he sought vengeance on the man who brought him so much agony.
Ikki would disrupt the tournament, shocking everyone with his transformation to evil. He would attempt to slaughter all the other Saints, including his very own brother. It would take the combined effort of Seiya, Shiryu, Shun, and Hyoga to fully put down the rogue Saint. In this battle, he would remember the key to true power: The almighty power of love. On death’s door, he would reveal to Seiya the truth of their conception, hoping that Seiya and his newfound brothers would continue the good fight when he could not.
It’s a good thing he could come back! His name is Phoenix Ikki after all. Ikki would make frequent returns to the battlefield, often assisting his fellow saints in combat and doing his damndest to overthrow whatever tyrant would be in the gang’s way. Sometimes he would die in the process, but he would always make his way towards the group as the heaviest hitter.
Eventually the gang would battle Hades himself (who was supposed to be Shun but shh), defeating the god and ending the war between the gods. From there, Ikki’s journey would vary across the different timeline, be it saving Seiya from death or accepting his status as a Leo Saint. No matter what battle may approach Ikki, he will always come back to showcase why he’s the strongest of Athena’s Saints in any universe.
Experience & Skill
Cure Scarlet
Being a Pretty Cure comes with the free package of being knowledgeable in combat, and Towa is no different. Described as “imagining how you want to move” (17:33)Towa has displayed a solid knowledge in hand to hand in spite of having no combat experience prior to becoming a Cure. These skills can improve even in mid combat, as other cures have managed to beat machines that properly analyzed their flight patterns to counter them.
As Twilight she managed to out maneuver the initial Go Princess team at the same time, the three of whom at this point had already dealt with several Zetsuborg and even killed a main villain (he got better). After becoming a Precure she assisted in the defeats of several major villains in several months, even assisting with other Precure affairs. By the end of the series she fully defeated Dyspear, despite her having experience against other Precures in “ancient times” with the same powers.
Phoenix Ikki
As a Saint, Ikki is naturally trained to be talented at hand to hand combat, but over his career Ikki has displayed a mastery beyond just the basics. All Saints have displayed the ability to see an attack and analyze to a point where it doesn’t work, something which Ikki has displayed even as far back as the first arc. Over the course of many many fights, Ikki has taken on and even surpassed plenty of opponents, be it other Saints and even the Gods themselves. His fellow comrade Seiya even early on in the series learned how to specifically disable a fighter's tools, and even utilized that to attack Shiryu’s weak point in a millisecond. Ikki was already considered the strongest Bronze Saint at this point, and only improved as he battled and obtained new powers and gained a strong understanding of his Cosmo.
Equipment
Cure Scarlet
Princess Perfume
The main device used to access the Pretty Cures powers. By inserting the Dress Up Keys into the perfume, Towa can spray it around herself to transform into Cure Scarlet. Beyond the transformation, the perfume grants access to Towa’s other attacks and forms. At times the perfume has acted independently, transporting people to other dimensions (5:04) or activating the spray to propel itself. (16:24)
Dress Up Keys
A set of keys powered by dreams, granting the user the ability to unlock the dreams of others closed by Dys Dark (19:43). When not unlocking dreams, the Cures can insert the keys into the Princess Perfume to utilize many special attacks and unlock different forms.
Grand Princess Key
The ultimate Princess Key formed after merging with the other Princess Keys. This allows Towa and her teammates to use “Grand Libération”, as well as unlock the Door of Dreams, freeing all the citizens of the Hope Kingdom and restoring their dreams. Presumably, this contains the abilities of the other respective Dress Up Keys.
Scarlet Violin
A combat altered version of the violin that was granted to Towa by her brother. Beyond being good for music (duh) it is commonly used to perform many of Towa’s fire related attacks.
Music Princess Palace
A music box designed in the image of a castle. When inserting the keys into the Palace, Scarlet can utilize even more powerful attacks, and access many of her Mode Elegant Forms.
Miracle Lights
A theater toy given out to kids that shows up a lot in the All Star movies and has actual lore behind it. Created by citizens of Planet Miracles, these lights are distributed across the universe to assist the Precure when they are in need. More often than not they are used to amp the strength of the Precure and grant them strength in dire circumstances, (59:25-1:00:20) but they have been used to undo several negative effects such as. These effects include the following:
Transmutation: The lights undo the crystallization of the Cures (48:00-49:12)
Mind Manipulation: Lights can fend off mind control, (1:00:14 - 1:00:34) restore memories (26:14-27:58) and retain said memories after time is rewound (32:21-34:00)
Time Stops: The Miracle Light protects a user from a time stop (35:51-36:34)
Phoenix Ikki
Phoenix Cloth
A set of armor based off of the Phoenix Constellation. Beyond just simply protecting its user and throwing little feathers as projectiles, the Phoenix Cloth can enhance their abilities and grants even more Cosmo when strength and spirit work together. Most importantly, the Phoenix Cloth has the special ability to repair itself from the tiniest of ashes. Not only does it restore Ikki’s energy when rebuilt, but it becomes stronger with each revive, turning Ikki into an even bigger threat each time.
And like a true Phoenix, it later gains the ability to fly!!!
Leo Cloth
The gold cloth connected to the aforementioned Leo constellation. Compared to Bronze Cloths, Gold Cloths are more resilient, freezing at only absolute zero temperatures and taking a god to completely shatter them. Due to his destiny as the next Leo Saint, the cloth has a connection to Ikki, and was able to come to his aid during the fight against Thanatos.
Phoenix God Cloth
The Phoenix Cloth enhanced by the blood of Athena. This version of the Phoenix Cloth contains all the abilities and properties of the original, while being enhanced to the point of being able to even harm and take hits from the gods themselves.
Authentic Cloth
A cloth that combines both the skills of both the Phoenix Cloth and Leo Cloth. A sacred relic that is formed by the miracle of a Bronze Saint and Gold Saint combining their powers, forming a new cloth in the process. Ikki is the only one to reach this state, and gains a boost big enough to even fight a Ninth Sense Leo, who’s power rivaled that of the gods themselves.
Abilities
Cure Scarlet
Pyrokinesis
If the name and visuals weren’t clear enough, (19:06-19:15) Towa can manipulate fire for many of her attacks and skills. She can surround herself or others with flames, trap enemies inside with them, or utilize them to enhance her physical blows.
Phoenix Blaze
The primary attack used by Scarlet. By inserting her Dress Up Key into the Princess Perfume and using the Scarlet Violin, Towa can create a giant phoenix shaped attack that burns enemies and purifies their dreams.
Scarlet Spark
The first normal attack from Towa, unleashing a stream of fire from the tip of Scarlet Violin after playing a tune on it. The fire can be left on an opponent for Scarlet to continue applying more pressure on the target. (13:25)
Scarlet Flame
The second flame attack that was used by Towa. By playing a tune on her Scarlet Violin, the bow heats up and releases a stream of flames at the opponent.
Scarlet Illusion
A fire technique that creates a barrier to protect Towa and her allies. These barriers can be used multiple times and cover a large area around her. She can even use the barrier as a means of trapping opponents. (16:52)
Scarlet Prominence
The ultimate attack by utilizing Premium Dress Up Key and the Music Princess Palace. By inserting the key into the palace, Towa summons a mini sun that unleashes a wave of heat at the opponent, burning through even other flames.
Éclat Espoir
The first of many group attacks performed with the other cures. By inserting the keys into the palaces on the Music Princess Palace, Scarlet activates Mode Elegant and dons her Premium Dress. A castle is then raised around the opponent, before unleashing a series of energy blasts that surround the foe and launch them into the sky, obliterating them.
Grand Printemps
The next big team attack performed by the Cures. Using the Royal Key to access Elegant Mode Premium once again, this attack manifests a palace to trap its opponent and create boosts for the cures. As a giant crown manifests in the sky, Scarlet and her teammates fly towards the boosts, dive bombing towards the target and purifying their dream.
Halloween Eclair
A special Halloween themed attack. After trapping an opponent within the castle, all four cures fire their respective energy blasts, overwhelming the enemy and destroying them, topping everything off with a flower blooming into a giant pumpkin. (44:49 onward)
Grand Libération
The ultimate attack granted by the Grand Princess Form. Raising their staves, they summon the Grand Princess Key, turning it into an actual giant key that pierces an enemy in their chest.
Power Absorption
By utilizing dreams as a source, Towa can absorb the energy of others to boost herself and other allies. This power can be utilized on multiple people, from a small group to an entire crowd's worth.
Sealing
With the power of the Princess Perfume, the previous Precure could seal Dyspear away for years. Towa herself has used this power to seal away multiple people before absorbing their dreams.
Dimension Creation
The Perfume grants Towa the ability to make small pocket dimensions to grant her a battlefield advantage.
Zenkai Boost
Not the actual official name but this is Magical Girl Dragonball after all. Cures tend to have a notable habit of becoming stronger mid combat through emotional boosts, and Towa is no different. In the midst of battle, Towa can go from losing badly to overpowering a foe with the right amount of motivation. Many Cures across the series have displayed impressive power jumps, be it equaling foes who once overpowered an entire team, one shooting duplicates that were once equal with them. (17:00-19:05). By Cure Dreams own words, they can improve even down to every second they are in combat (42:00-42:33) (which was said to another copy)
Resurrection
Okay so this is a fucking weird one.
Basically at the beginning of the All Star F movie all of the Cures (Scarlet included) are basically erased in no uncertain terms. (42:18-43:12). That is until Supreme confirms that the Cures and I quote “appeared again in this world out of nowhere” and affirms this is just a natural power. The timeframe for how long this takes naturally is never made clear, but when Cure Sky and Prism use the Miracle Lights to summon their allies, it only takes a few moments for them to fully come back, (again Scarlet included) specifically by “illuminating their emotions.”
In shorthand terms Scarlet either with enough emotion or a handy dandy Miracle Light on hand can eventually bring herself back even after being erased. Fucking magical girls man.
Resistances
NOTE: A fair amount of the resistances are powers and skills displayed by other Cures. While not always the case most Precure are shown accomplishing the same resistances in many crossovers, leading some credence to believe Towa can resist other powers from other series.
Heat Manipulation: I mean…duh. Even beyond the obvious she was able to survive a blast from Warp (40:35), who was made of pure lava (38:59), which can reach temperatures of 2,000 degrees
Extreme Cold: Pretty Cure can survive in space consistently, which has temperatures up to -270.45 degrees Celsius
Illusions: The Go Princess team has shown resistances to illusions, be it physical or purely mental. Other Precures have even managed to break through a nightmare world. (34:40-35:03)
Soul Manipulation: Minori activating her powers switched her and Laura’s souls around (16:48-17:10). Cures have generally been able to also interact with souls or soul like equivalents in the past.
BFR: The Smile Precures broke out of Joker’s Sloth Ball, (16:35-18:45) which seals its targets in another dimension. (00:00-2:40)
Emotion Manipulation: Dys Dark cannot affect or take the dreams of a Cure. (7:28-7:38) Even a non powered human was able to break through the seal and resist her dream being stolen. (14:00-14:37)
Time Manipulation: Cures are consistently resistant to time stops (20:25-21:20). Even when not transformed they’ve shown to break through time stops (16:06), and both heroes (13:38) and villains have stated they cannot stop a Precure’s time (20:52)
Possession: Cure Sky was able to resist the possession of Skearhead (18:47-19:33)
Absorption: The Fresh Precure could resist and break through Fusion’s absorption.
Petrification: The Suite Precure team was unaffected by Noise turning everything into stone. (19:57-20:27)
Erasure Existence: Could block and withstand attacks (56:20) from Supreme's erasure ability. (43:20 same link). The Star Twinkle crew could even survive the universe being erased
Phoenix Ikki
Cosmo
The main form of energy and combat with the Saint Seiya universe. Weaponizing the energy of the big bang itself, Cosmo can be utilized in various ways to achieve frankly absurd accomplishments. At the most basic level, Saints can utilize their cosmos to separate the atoms from a target to destroy them. They can manifest it as a form of heat that can burn objects, enhance their senses to detect other cosmos, generate force fields, and even communicate telepathically. As a user burns and unlocks greater depths to their cosmo, they begin to unlock the extra senses of the body, allowing them to at times even compete with the gods themselves.
Sixth Sense
The first extra sense unlocked when a Saint first taps into their Cosmo. The Sixth Sense offers psychic-like abilities, allowing users to gain precognitive abilities and detect various forms of danger. While not always clear, the Sixth Sense informs users of bad omens and potential danger, allowing for Saints to make decisions based on the information available.
Seventh Sense
The true essence of one's Cosmo. Beyond even the Sixth Sense, the Seventh Sense enhances many of the established abilities for Cosmo to an even greater degree. Users can sense targets across universes, generate heat that can go up to “a million degrees” and even regrow limbs with enough focus. Ikki himself has even used the Seventh Sense to guide his actions when all six of his senses were destroyed. In the very same moment, he gathered enough energy with his dying Cosmo to throw him and Shaka into another dimension
Eighth Sense
Beyond even the Seventh Sense lies an ability that defies even the laws of the Underworld. Typically awakening near death, the Eighth Sense allows for the soul to continue to remain alive even in the Underworld. Typically those who fall into the Underworld are killed, their souls subjected to eternal torment at the hands of Hades. With the Eighth Sense, one can fight back against the control of Hades and act on their own. Effectively, this lets Ikki’s soul continue to act on its own, unable to be controlled by others.
Miracle
What appears like a basic shonen esque speech is actually an in-universe ability for Saints. Hidden within humans is a special gift that allows them to tap within the deepest parts of their will power to produce a “miracle.” These miracles don’t just simply give a power boost, but actively change and any determined destiny put upon them and achieve what is usually deemed impossible. Effectively, by digging deep into the infinite potential of his Cosmo, Ikki can defy probability and perform feats that are deemed “impossible.”
For a modern comparison, think of it like JJK’s Black Flash. It’s a powerful attack that isn’t something usually possible normally, but given the circumstance can come out and change the tide of battle.
Soaring Phoenix Wings
Ikki’s main offensive attack. Shaping his Cosmo in the shape of a phoenix, Ikki pushes his palms forward to unleash a flame that engulfs and burns the opponent.
Illusion Demon Fist
The most dangerous technique afforded to Ikki as a Phoenix Saint. While the initial hit is about as hard as a mosquito bite, the real attack is toward the mind itself, as a deadly illusion is cast upon its target. In just a few seconds, a target can be inflicted with a nightmare that can even last what feels like a lifetime, completely disrupting the target and stunning them even when at half power. When operating at full capacity, it can even tear apart the soul and kill the victim in question. His psychic skills have even been shown to be on par with Virgo Shaka, who can create illusions that completely warp one's sense of time and even use multiple illusions at once.
The Demon Fist can be used beyond just destruction, as Ikki can adjust it for other applications relating to the mind. He’s used the technique to read the minds of other Saints, can send jolts to the brain to distract enemies, and could possibly erase and restore memories similar to Shaka. His psychic prowess has been stated to be equal to that of Gemini Saga, who can use his powers to straight up mind control people and gasp cast illusions!
Hellfire Whirlwind
A combination of both his flames and illusionary powers, this attack with the Authentic Cloth has the ability to burn both the mind and body simultaneously.
Endurance
The will of a Saint is absurd if nothing else, allowing them to fight through the worst of odds. Ikki has managed to continue fighting in spite of having his flesh and bones scraped, losing all of his senses, and even having every cell in his body ruptured. Other Saints have displayed plenty of insane feats, whether it be fighting while unconscious, losing loads of blood, or even having vital organs like the heart damaged.
Resurrection
Due to his connection to the Phoenix Cloth, Ikki has depicted an ability to resurrect himself from beyond the depths of the Underworld. Described as neither “alive nor dead”, Ikki after a period of time can resurrect himself, stronger than before. Even after being completely disintegrated, Ikki managed to eventually come back from the dead like nothing happened.
Resistances
NOTE: Like the previous combatant, not all of these resistances have been necessarily shown by Ikki himself, but given many of them are just accomplished through the use of Cosmo, it’s fair to say Ikki should be able to have similar resistances.
Heat Manipulation: I mean…duh. Beyond interacting with other Saints, Ikki has slept within a volcano which can reach temperatures up to 2000 degrees fahrenheit.
Mind Manipulation: Has psychic blocks to prevent Shakka’s illusions from affecting him.
Extreme Cold: Gold Cloth’s only freeze at -459 degrees
Poison Manipulation: Beyond his own showings, other Saints have survived the toxic fumes of a volcano
Electricity Manipulation: Saints have consistently shaken off electrical effects up to thousands of volts
Petrification: Strong enough Cosmo has blocked or held off petrification effects.
Soul Manipulation: The Eighth Sense allows for Ikki to maintain full control of his soul and survive in the world of Hades without dying.
Radiation Manipulation: Leo’s Cosmo is able to block out the effects of radiation.
Time Manipulation: Time stops do not work on Saints with potent enough Cosmo. Gold Cloths also protect users from time manipulation.
Fate/Probability Manipulation: With Miracles, a Saint can defy determined events and achieve the impossible.
Forms (If Applicable)
Cure Scarlet
Twilight
When under Dyspear’s control, Towa would take on the persona of Twilight. Utilizing despair as a source, Twilight can control blue flames and power up her allies to become even stronger.
Cure Scarlet
The primary transformation Towa enters when using her Perfume and Dress Up Key. As Cure Scarlet she gains access to various superhuman characteristics, along with access to her pyrokinetic abilities. Despite what the visuals and jokes may tell you, Cures do not actually take eons to transform and have been shown to enter their states in a flash.
Mode Elegant (Phoenix)
Towa’s first Elegant form when utilizing her Phoenix Dress Up Key in tandem with the Princess Perfume. In this state she gains access to her Phoenix Blaze technique.
Mode Elegant (Sun)
The form Towa takes when accessing the Princess Palace with her Sun Dress Key. In this state she is able to create energy blasts necessary to form Éclat Espoir.
Mode Elegant (Halloween)
A Halloween based version of the Elegant forms. Functionally acts like the previous mode but with a Halloween based touch.
Mode Elegant (Royal)
The final upgrade for her Elegant forms after utilizing the Royal Key within the Princess Palace. Apart from a strength increase, this form grants her the ability to fly at super speeds to crash into the opponent.
Grand Princess
The ultimate transformation for Towa after receiving the dreams of everyone in Noble Academy. In this state Towa can fly (9:43), use her staff for attacking and defending (20:31), and even use her previous finishing moves without needing her previous equipment.
Phoenix Ikki
None notable.
Feats
Cure Scarlet
Overall
As Twilight, overpowered the three initial Princess Cures with ease
Broke free of her brainwashing and became Cure Scarlet
Restored her brothers memories and powers
Fully restored the Hope Kingdom
Defeated Dyspear and achieved the power of a Grand Princess
Assisted in the defeat of several major movie villains such as Supreme, Crow Tengu, and Trauuma
Power
Leaves a giant crater in the ground after using her flames (16:14)
Breaks an giant piece of chalk (13:51)
Created a beam of light visible from outer space (19:16-19:30)
Destroys Dyspear completely and clears out all the vines in the surrounding area. (21:47)
Along with other Cures, lights up the universe after blasting Supreme (1:07:52-1:08:21)
Speed
Contributes to a blast that eclipses the galaxy in a second. (19:50-20:10) (19 trillion times FTL)
Blasts Supreme with light that covers the universe in seconds (1:08:13-1:08:21) (2-183 quadrillion times FTL)
Durability
Withstands a soundwave that shatters glass (18:19-18:32)
Blocks Lock’s Flame Breath (16:14)
Withstands a giant laser beam that destroys a stadium and large parts of land. (40:35)
Phoenix Ikki
Overall
Considered to be the strongest Bronze Saint
Survived the sheer intensity of Death Island
Defeated many Saints such as Shakka, Casa, and Garuda Aiacos
Helped defeat gods such as Poseidon and Hades
Unlocked both his Gold and God Cloth
Has battled three different Gemini’s and survived the Galactic Explosion in all of them.
Awakened to the Authentic Cloth and defeated a Ninth Sense Leo, a sense comparable to that of godhood
Power
Speed
The Hyperdimension is stated to beyond ten billion light years (1:31), with some statements implying it to have “billions of dark spaces” in between said galaxies. (815 trillion to 11 sextillion times FTL)
Durability
Tanks the Death Queen Inferno which was supposed to remove the flesh off his bones.
Has survived the Galaxian Explosion multiple times.
Scaling
Cure Scarlet
Overall
Cure Scarlet has consistently kept up with both her teammates and other Pretty Cure across the franchise. In most movies or episodes she can contribute equally towards defeating the main villains, most recently defeating Supreme, a villain who was hyped up as the strongest movie villain at that point. These crossovers were all before she unlocked her full potential as a Grand Princess, making her absolute peak nothing to scoff at.
This is important to highlight as Pretty Cure has had several threats across its 20 year history. Because she’s on par with pretty much every Pretty Cure in the series, Towa would benefit from the many feats performed by different Pretty Cure and their respective villains.
Dys Dark
The main antagonists of the Go Princess series. Scarlet and her crew have taken on all of Dys Dark’s threats and surpassed them time and time again. Needless to say, Scarlet would scale to the feats performed by the group.
Used the despair from the original keys to lift an entire castle (21:24)
Close spreads despair across a town (4:16-4:42)
Warp destroys a large portion of land with one blast (40:35)
Movie Villains
No good movie is without a good antagonist, to which the PreCure All Star movie has plenty of them. Naturally all of these villains are defeated in some way shape or form by the Cures, giving Towa plenty of avenues to scale.
Supreme destroys (42:10) and remakes the earth (43:40)
Yango spreads his vines across the universe in seconds (53:36) (105-209 quadrillion times FTL)
Fusion planned on destroying all and creating a world of nothing but a pitch black void. (3:53)
Trauuma’s power cracks their home dimension (53:53) and planned on reducing the world to nil (54:31) (nil means “zero”)
Futari Wa Precure
The OG main characters themselves. Their insistence on showing up in every crossover ever has allowed Towa to showcase that she can keep up with the OG crew, letting her scale to the accomplishments in their home series.
Dark King’s mere rage (6:14-6:35) causes the Garden of Light, Dark Zone, and home dimension to tremble and almost collapse
Dark King destroys a planet and sun (15:16-16:20)
The Dark King’s darkness would eventually consume “all worlds” (4:26)
The Queen maintains the worlds while they are unbalanced (6:42)
The Dark King fires an energy blast from the Garden of Rainbows to the Garden of Light (3:15-3:25) (183 quadrillion times FTL)
Iikubo flies from the Garden of Light to the Dark Zone (20:53-21:14) (122 quadrillion times FTL)
The Futari Wa Cures later get an upgrade that makes their energy 100 times stronger (17:46) (Note: while the gazillion number is demoted for not being real the actual 100 number is not)
Splash Star Precure
The underrated sequel series. Despite being overshadowed by the OG the Splash Star crew has several accomplishments of their own. As reaffirmed earlier, Towa’s ability to stand shoulders with the others should let her be on par with the cast of Splash Star.
Goyan destroys the Earth (14:33-14:57)
Splash Star Cures create a blast that rivals the big bang (10:16-10:32)
Goyan reveals he was present for the big bang, and plans on reducing the universe back to the state nothing (4:30-5:04)
Goyan destroys his home dimension (21:08-21:40)
Witchy Precure
Putting the magic in magical girls, the Witchy Precure crew have dealt with some absurd threats in their run. It goes without saying that the frequent interactions allow Scarlet to scale to many of the big threats in series.
Witchy Precures fire a blast that travels towards the end of the cosmos (6:35-7:08) (14.8 quadrillion times FTL)
Witchy Precures weaponize (4:33) “life” which surpasses the birth of the universe (10:14-10:27)
Denumast devours planets and stars (14:39-15:21)
He later devours the sun (10:52) and fuses two worlds (12:01)
Star Twinkle Precure
Welcome to Super Precure Galaxy. The Star Twinkle cast have had a slew of adventures across the universe, and suffice to say the villains of their series match the scale. If the point hasn’t been hammered home enough, Scarlet should scale to the big feats accomplished here.
Cure Selene dodges an arrow that travels through the warp (12:38-12:43)
The warp can send objects and people across the universe in seconds (48-293 quadrillion times FTL)
The Star Princesses created the universe (13:36-14:17)
Darknest erases the universe (2:33-4:50)
Star Twinkle Cures remake the universe (14:35-15:50) (96-483 quadrillion times FTL)
Misc.
With over 70 fucking named Pretty Cure in this franchise, it goes without saying the girls have accomplished loads of impressive feats. If you STILL haven’t figured it out by now, Scarlet can match the past and present Cures, letting her scale to many of their accomplishments.
Kira A La Mode Cures recreate the Earth (18:40-20:50)
Tropical Cures absorb energy (12:32) that was destroying the world
Cure Coral (18:24) could react to beams of light (19:29)
Precures are stated to have power that rivals the big bang (12:45-12:58)
The enemies are upgraded in Doki Doki to be five times as fast and ten times as strong beforehand. (17:13)
Smile Precures overpower (21:12-21:36) a planet busting blast (18:25-18:41)
Smile Precures can grant themselves a 1000 times strength boost (17:03-18:01)
Phoenix Ikki
Overall
At his peak of power Ikki should scale to a majority of the feats performed in his universe. His Authentic Cloth was able to match and even overpower a Ninth Sense Leo, a sense that is deemed to be approaching the gods. Even prior to this fight he had already taken on Gods such as Poseidon and Hades, taking attacks and even being able to overwhelm them.
His status as the strongest of the Bronze Saints would also allow him to scale to many of the feats performed by his comrades. Ikki was consistently written as the heaviest hitter of the five Athena Saints, usually performing the best in solo fights and accomplishing feats the group couldn’t, namely being the only one to achieve an Authentic Cloth. With this in mind, it should be safe to scale Ikki to a majority of the feats performed in his verse.
Athena Saints
Athena’s loyal guardians. The Bronze Boys have done some absurd shit in their time, and being considered the strongest of the group would let Ikki scale to many of their feats.
Shun’s chains cross light years in minutes (4 million/billion times FTL)
Seiya creates Big Bang level strikes when awakening his Seventh Sense
Seiya overpowers the Galaxian Explosion in the Saint Sho anime (7:56-8:24)
Shun’s chains cross extra-dimensional space to save Seiya. (9:08-9:54) (4 million times FTL)
The Saints Together redirect the force of two Athena Exclamations (5:43-8:16)
Seiya survives Zeus’s lightning which completely collapses the Underworld.
The Saints Cross the Hyperdimension in minutes (4 quadrillion to 11 sextillion times FTL)
Hyoga and Shiryu with their God Cloths are able to one shot Hypnos
Gold Saints
The most revered status of a Saint. Donning Gold Cloths to symbolize their status, the Gold Saints live up to their title, and have displayed many feats to showcase why they’re the best of the best. Given Ikki has matched, taken blows, and later surpassed many of these Saints, it goes without saying he can scale to their achievements.
Camus shoots a beam that tags the Aquarius Constellation (11:36) (289 billion times FTL)
Siegfried calls down a beam from Ursa Major (20:28) (1 billion times FTL)
Gemini can distort the space with his “Another Dimension” technique
Gemini Saga blocks a lightning attack that traveled across the Underworld in seconds (293 quadrillion times FTL)
Leo awakened the Ninth Sense, which rivals the Athena Exclamation
Shura surpasses the initial expansion of the big bang (See Before the Verdict)
Virgo Shaka’s Agyo replicates a myriad of universes being born and destroyed
Gods
The big dogs of the Saint Seiya universe. While usually above our protagonists, there are moments where the gap is closed by the characters, be it a miracle or donning a God Cloth to trade blows with them. Ikki has managed to overwhelm Hades with some help, and would later match Leo once he achieved the Ninth Sense, a sense that reaches the realm of the gods. At his peaks, Ikki should safely scale to the titans of his verse.
Hades with telekinesis moves all the planets in the solar system
Eris pulls a soul towards her destination at the edge of the universe (46-122 quadrillion times FTL)
Poseidon sends Gods Cloths through the Hyperdimension (19:52-21:45) (25 quadrillion to 74 sextillion times FTL)
Thanatos sends attacks (9:04) across the universe in seconds (9:54-10:11) (86 quadrillion-492 sextillion times FTL) (Debatable)
Abzu created the universe (6:54)
Hades creates the Underworld, Elysium, and The Hyperdimension, all of which are universe sized reams.
Weaknesses
Cure Scarlet
Is she stupid???
Being powered by dreams is a double edged sword, as should Towa’s dream waver her performance can be weakened in battle (15:04). If she were to fall into despair, she could lose the ability to transform entirely. (6:28). Enough battle damage can also knock Towa out of her forms (10:10-10:22) albeit this usually takes A LOT of power.
Phoenix Ikki
Ikki I don’t even think was in this film but still holy fuck
Ikki doesn’t have any inherent obvious weaknesses, albeit his overconfidence can certainly get the best of him at times. While his resurrection is very iconic, it also takes a while to actually kick in, often having Ikki be dead for a long period of time before jumping back into action. Should someone destroy his soul completely, he would at the very least be out of commission for a significant period of time.
Before the Verdicts
Eighth Sense Regen
There is some belief that the Eighth Sense constructs a new body on top of the soul, leading to the belief that Saints can regrow new bodies consistently from their soul. Shockingly this one has a simple answer. Saint Seiya Lost Canvas Gaiden explicitly says that a new body cannot be made for a dead saint in spite of them achieving the Eighth Sense, and the ability to come back beyond death is a power served for Gods. While the soul is still intact, a Saint cannot create a new body from said soul.
Ikki’s illusion travel
During his fight with Shaka, Ikki appears to travel billions to quadrillion degrees, traveling what would be an absurd amount of distance, only for the reveal to be all an illusion by Shaka. That should be cut and dry right? He clearly didn’t actually travel that far so it’s not a speed feat!
No that’s like…it. That's all I can say. There are some claims that he did legit cross that distance but nothing in the few panels actually implies that he could or did travel that length with his soul or any other method.
Thanatos sends attacks across the universe
This feat’s presentation is kinda weird. The idea is that Thanatos is sending psychic attacks towards Seiya’s sister, which is the main reason he can snipe people many light years away. It’s also pointed out in the chapter and anime retelling that the cast can’t see the attacks due to being psychic in nature. The only one who can is Kiki thanks to his psychic intuition. The idea at least is Thanatos isn’t physically launching any attacks, but rather using deadly psychic attacks that wouldn’t require any projectile to actually cross a cosmic distance.
That being said, the attack is still treated as being somewhat physical in nature, with Kiki specifically sensing its initial presence and describing it as a “fireball” that was directly aimed at Seiya’s sister. He then uses this tactic to direct the other Saints towards the direction the attack is coming and when it would arrive. (10:50).
There is a case for both sides. For the sake of argument a calc was made for it, reaching quadrillions to sextillion times FTL.
Shura Surpassing the Big Bang’s Expansion
You might notice such an insane speed feat doesn’t have any absurd number. In the past this has reached all sorts of values, from quintillion to even septillion times FTL. So why is that number missing here?
To simply put, we don’t actually know how fast the Big Bang expanded in real life! The “initial expansion speed” has no actual solid confirmed number, and requires far more guesses and assumptions than normal. Between how much distance was covered and how fast it actually took, there’s just way too many question marks surrounding the big bang’s “initial expansion.” The feat is FTL as the page says so, but beyond that it’s unlikely we’ll be able to get a solid number for the feat.
Cronus Scaling/Feats
One of the more notable feats within Saint Seiya happens as a result of the actions of it’s big bad Cronus. Near the end of the manga he destroys his hourglass, a device that was responsible for controlling time as a whole, causing the past and future to be distorted and everything to collapse. Because of this, there is some belief that Cronus has Multiversal+ AP, as he would be destroying all of time across every universe. Leo being able to beat Cronus by the end would allow him to scale, and by extension Ikki would get said scaling.
Well off rip there’s nothing to fully confirm that Cronus is 100% nuking every piece of time across the entire multiverse. At most he mentions he is meant to “destroy all existing things” but nothing indicates that he is referring to every universe out there at the same time. The translations available never imply he would be destroying every future, often using singular terms like “the past and future” and not “futures.”
Even if we assume Cronus was destroying the entire multiverse…the entire point of the conversation was everyone would die. Leo had to specifically kill Cronus before everyone was killed by the oncoming collapse. Narrative intent can always be argued at times in VS but in this context there’s nothing to indicate Leo or anyone would survive the collapse, no matter how you slice it this feat couldn’t be scaled back to anyone of note.
Twilight Powers
While Twilight doesn’t resurface, the Dress Up Key she uses is an evolved version of the “Twilight” version. In addition, Dreams as a power source can be converted into despair (8:09) and vice versa, leading into the idea any powers Twilight used, Towa can use as Cure Scarlet
Precure Dimensions
You might have noticed “dimension” has been thrown around like a bargain bin term. Obviously on its own being a “dimension” wouldn’t mean anything in terms of the size of these worlds. Fresh Precure gives a solid elaboration as to the nature of the other dimensions in the series, utilizing the concept of parallel worlds as it’s talking point (5:21-5:54), The idea being that these “worlds” are meant to be universes, with the dimensions enemies and allies come from being their own universes respectively.
This does line up with generally how the series depicts the nature of the other dimensions. The All Star DX3 movie makes it a point that the Prism Flower utilizes “dimensional light” to connect the worlds to our own, and in the OG series when the Dark King was rampaging across the different worlds, it was noted that cracks in space time began to form as a result. With all of this in mind, it’s fair to treat most of the big alternate dimensions in Pretty Cure as their own universes.
Precure All Stars Cross-Scaling
“How Many Precure are there?”
“Save it for Comic Con”
A large portion of Cure Scarlet’s scaling has to do with her scaling to other Pretty Cure across the series. If you aren’t familiar with the series you may think this is a bit extreme for her big stats to be reliant on completely separate series, but rest assured these aren’t just silly Smash Bros style crossovers.
In recent years, Toei has made it a point to emphasize the crossover nature of Pretty Cure, to the point it’s been bleeding into the main series of several Pretty Cure seasons and affecting their stories. To highlight these examples:
At the end of every Pretty Cure season starting from Witchy, the protagonist of the upcoming season will make a cameo in the final episode.
The main antagonist of the All Stars Miraculous Movie Solcière makes a cameo in the final episode of Witchy
Tropical Precure has an entire segment where the HeartCatch Precure speculates on the existence of other Cures.
Hugotto has three dedicated episodes where Pretty Cure across the entire series crossover with the main team, all of them recognizing each other from past movies and adventures.
The most recent series Full Bloom, a sequel to Yes 5 taking place years later has both Splash Star and Futari Wa Cures show up and recognize each other.
You may ask about how in the hell does this work from a canon perspective and the answer has frankly just been Toei kinda shrugging their shoulders and creating some comic book ass timestream. Regardless of the logic behind it, it’s clear the crossover element of Precure has become firmly integrated into the series, making it fair to use the other series as scaling for Scarlet.
Verdicts
Stats
In terms of direct showings both have shockingly displayed feats of a similar range. Scarlet within the big crossover movies and episodes has created blasts that have eclipsed both the galaxy and universe in seconds. Ikki on the other hand has statements of achieving energy similar to the big bang, and his feat of moving across the Hyperdimension in minutes would reach 815 trillion times FTL with the lowest end, and sextillion times FTL on the higher end. Suffice to say their AP and durability would be about even, with speeds on the lower end would be close but favoring Scarlet equal, while higher ends would be cleanly in Ikki’s field.
Incorporating scaling into the discussion funnily enough provides a similar outcome. Cure Scarlet should be on par with the many Cures of her series given how often she can keep up with many of her peers without any difficulty. Pretty Cure are stated directly to have power comparable to the big bang, which has been proven with feats such as the Star Twinkle crew recreating the universe, the Witchy Precures using a power surpassing the big bang, and the Splash Star Cures outputting a blast on par with the big bang. Even the villains have displayed similar feats such as the Dark King nearly collapsing multiple universes, Black Hole consuming a flower that can hold together multiple universes, and Darknest just openly erasing the universe. Speed wise, feats like Yango’s universe wide vine spread or Cure Selene dodging objects flying through the interstellar warp nets values as low as 14 quadrillion times FTL, and on the higher end 293 quadrillion times FTL. At the highest realm of speed, the Star Twinkle Cures remaking the universe in three seconds would get 498 quadrillion times FTL.
On Ikki’s side, there are many many many universal statements and feats performed by multiple parties, be it his teammates, the Gold Saints, and the Gods themselves. Ikki has directly been compared to Virgo Shaka, who has a feat of birthing and destroying a myriad of universes, and has rivaled a Ninth Sense Leo and nearly killed him with his attacks. Ninth Sense users have been stated to surpass universe level attacks like the Athena Exclamation, and have been stated to be comparable to gods, all of whom are born with the ability to make their own respective universes. Speed wise we have plenty of feats crossing the Hyper Dimension from our own Saints and the Gods as well. On the lower ends they consistently reach single to double digit quadrillion times FTL, whereas the higher values would reach sextilion times FTL.
So once again we find ourselves in a similar scenario even with scaling. Their AP and durability would hit varying degrees of universal to multiversal, with lower speed values slightly favoring Scarlet and higher values favoring Ikki. Many of these feats however, have been spread across both of their respectives universes’ timelines. Both at their absolute peaks could upscale greatly from many of these accomplishments, so what happens when we apply that logic to both?
On Ikki’s side the gaps between Saints power levels has always been massive, with the jump between Silver Saints to Gold Saints being Mach 5 to Light Speed as an example. Even before achieving his Gold Cloth, Ikki was capable of rivaling many of the Gold Saints and unlocking many techniques that would be considered impossible to learn at the level of a Bronze Saint. When he did achieve his God and Authentic Cloths he was able to swing with people like Thanatos and Hades, who can casually shatter Gold Cloths with no effort and create structures that took 12 Gold Saints going all out to fully break. In spite of all of these grand rises in power, there aren’t any definitive numbers or measurements to illustrate this once we begin hitting the Gold Saint tier. It’s a big gap for sure, but nothing with clear cut quantifiable ends.
Cure Scarlet’s upscaling is just as absurd, in part due to the timeline placement of many of these crossovers. Almost every Cure crossover happens at some point before they reach their peak of power, sometimes happening at the beginning of their series. Before she even accessed her higher Mode Elegant forms she was able to compete and fight with several villains who could take on entire teams of Pretty Cure. Even the first major villain Fusion would later reappear as a monster of the week. This is important as there are several named dropped multipliers throughout the series, all taking place after many of these crossover movies. If we were to take the lowest ends of say one universe and 2 quadrillion times FTL, and take the stated multipliers we’d get something like this:
1000 times from the Ultra Decor
100 times from the Sparkle Bracelets
5 times stronger and two times faster from the upgraded enemies of Doki Doki
That’d hit about 500,000 times universal and 400 quintillion times FTL. Now granted these multipliers are rarely given a lot of proper explanation, oftentimes being one off statements so it’s fair to understand the hesitancy to utilize them. Even without these said multipliers, being able to fight and beat many of the movie villains who take on a much bigger set of Cures than Saints should get across just how strong Scarlet can be once she gets access to Grand Princess.
If this rundown wasn’t clear, there are different ways you can look at the power levels of both combatants. To condense this into a TLDR, in most cases both characters are hitting similar levels of power and speed, but if taking the higher possible arguments into account for both Scarlet would be a great deal stronger and more durable, while Ikki would be a great deal faster.
Arsenal & Abilities
This one is a bit more of a doozy, so how about we break these down into categories to easy up things a little.
Attack Options
It should be obvious that pyrokinesis on either side isn’t working, given their resistances to fire and heat in general. Once Scarlet has her Grand Princess form, losing pyrokinesis isn’t nearly as much of a loss by comparison. Even without her fire, she still has access to all of her energy based team attacks minus Grand Liberation’s max power. The area at which she can spread those attacks out is massive as well, as shown when Flora could create several summoning circles to launch her attacks. Taking into account her AOE, at worst she’s reaching planetary scales given her ability to clear Dyspear’s vines across the planet. At her best, she’d be able to cover possibly an entire universe with her attacks given her contribution to the cosmic wide team attacks. All of this on top of gaining even better flight than her previous Elegant forms, providing a very solid movement option for controlling the fight.
Even with the Authentic Cloth, Ikki hasn’t shown AOE on the same levels as Towa, much less the sheer variety in what she brings to the table. Being more of a melee fighter, he’s going to be dependent on getting in more than ever. His flight while available hasn’t been used to actually well…fight all that much and he hasn’t shown proficiency in using it in that manner. Even the Sixth Sense’s precognitive abilities can only do so much if Ikki doesn’t actually have the tools to take advantage of his foresight. With the quantity of options at her disposal, this category goes to Cure Scarlet.
Defensive Options
Alongside the flower themed barriers she gets as a Grand Princess, Scarlet Illusion gives Towa a solid defensive option as well as an ability to potentially trap Ikki inside of a barrier, especially given her ability to spam it as Cure Scarlet. Comparatively while not a straight up barrier, the Phoenix Cloth does provide more protection by comparison to Scarlet's regular wear. Even better, on the chance it does get destroyed, it will be able to put itself together from even the ashes itself, stronger and more durable than ever.
Ultimately defense wise the two are shockingly even. On one hand, Ikki’s cloth is a consistent form of defense that will always be strengthening itself over time, especially when shattered. On the other hand, Scarlet’s barriers can be applied in more creative ways and can cover a greater area in comparison. With that being said, the consistency of Ikki's cloth provides a source of protection that he’ll always have throughout the battle, compared to Scarlet who has to actively apply her defenses, leading him to edge out in this category.
Illusions
Arguably the most potent thing to take note of is Ikki’s illusions vs Scarlet’s resistances to said illusions. The Phantom Devil Fist is Ikki’s most powerful option, with frankly absurd showings for how potent the illusions can be. In just a few seconds Ikki can trap a person in an illusion that feels like an entire lifetime, read and disrupt their minds with jolt, and tear apart the mind and soul in question. If compared to other psychics like Shaka and Gemini, he could arguably erase memories and create multiple illusions on top of each other.
Towa and the crew have at least shown some answers to illusions however. Haruka, Minami and Kirara were able to dispel physical ones, and later on Haruka was able to break out of an illusion that was meant to simulate a perfect life for her. Other Cures have even shown breaking out of dream worlds that were also designed to replicate everyday life for them. Combined with the miracle lights being able to restore memories, it should be cut and dry right?
Well…maybe? This is where debate about layers of resistance come into the picture. It’s fair to say that Scarlet has shown the components to resist illusions, but comparatively Ikki’s psychic techniques have far more hype behind them in a universe full of people who can also use illusions. Shaka and Gemini both admitted he had equal skill to them in psychic prowess, and even when Saints could recognize the illusions, they had no ability to fully dispel them. Granted this could be argued as their lack of direct illusion resistance, but given Ikki’s techniques could work people noted to have the same level of psychic skills as he did, it’s possible a greater psychic will is enough to bypass their skills in illusion detection. Even if Towa could break out of one, who’s to say Ikki can’t amp it up and use something more potent? With his Authentic Cloth on hand, he wouldn’t even need to directly hit her with a punch but just use his flames to apply the illusions, even if she was stronger.
To summarize, while it’s arguable that Towa can break out of some of Ikki’s illusions, it’s more than likely at his peaks he’d be able to affect her, thus lending this category to Ikki.
Princess Perfume Misc. Powers
The sealing and dimension creation skills wouldn’t fully help Towa since Ikki has shown to leave other dimensions before and weaker Saints can break out of sealing. This just leaves the power to absorb dreams for strength, which may actually come into play here. While the power was more directly applied as Twilight, Towa’s Perfume has shown to passively react to the strong dreams of others, using them as fuel to grant herself strength. Even if it wouldn’t KO or drain Ikki of strength, a constant source of fuel would be if nothing else helpful to maintaining Scarlet’s strength and power advantage.
If you noticed, I never mentioned Ikki resisting any absorption of any kind. That might sound off putting and it was at first to me, but there aren’t any direct cases of Ikki or other resisting energy draining directly. If anything it has been shown to actually affect Saints in the past. Even if we assume this is purely because of divine energy and Ikki wouldn’t be affected by life draining effects once at his absolute peaks, the source of “dreams” is a much different resource than Cosmo, and would still be a useful supply of power for Scarlet to use.
Strength Boosting
Both Ikki and Scarlet have shown to become even stronger mid combat, often to ludicrous degrees. Depending on the power gap Ikki’s skill of attacks not working on him twice after exposure could be very useful for stopping Towa’s options. Even if the gap is high, he could possibly weaponize the power of a Miracle to alter fate and probability to score in a hit that would be fatal. While Miracles haven’t necessarily shown the ability to negate dura per se, the idea of being able to alter destiny and predetermined outcomes could be used to argue he would be able to “negate” the stat gap in some way.
With that being said, Scarlet's zenkai boosting is just more consistent overall. Cures have been shown to become stronger in fairly short timeframes, Taking Cure Dream’s statement into account this can happen every second the battle is in motion. Miracles are nowhere near as consistent, and it would be a NLF to assume that Ikki could tank all attacks after being exposed to them once if Scarlet is that much stronger both out the gate, and when considering the boosts she’d be getting in battle.
Resurrection
Unsurprisingly, the two Phoenix themed characters both have ways to come back from the dead or at least stay in the fight. Ikki’s Eighth sense on it’s own allows him to still fight even as a soul, giving at least one more shot to keep going should his body at least be destroyed. His main resurrection ability, ironically, wouldn’t be a strong factor here. While he’s come back from being completely atomized, it’s also taken him a LONG time to do so, often being gone for entire volumes at a time. In a typical fight scenario he wouldn’t be able to take advantage of this ability readily
Scarlet’s resurrection is a bit more complicated. On average it probably wouldn’t be a factor given even when the Cures did come back on their own in the movie, it took a fair while before that actually took effect. However when armed with both the Miracle Lights and the dreams and emotions within her Grand Princess form, that revival becomes more likely to actually come out. Remember, the movie notes the revival was powered by illuminating the already present emotions for the Cures. When the Miracle Lights activated said emotions, it only took a moment for the Cures to fully revive themselves, and that was after they were basically erased. At the very least, it’s possible with everything at her disposal, Scarlet could pull off at least one revive and have the energy necessary to continue the fight once again.
So despite having an entire gimmick dedicated to reviving, Ikki’s methods of reviving are inferior to Scarlet’s, letting her claim this victory in this section.
Summary
That was a LOT. Again. The powers of these two are fascinating and grant them different ways of winning the fight. With everything laid out let’s try to get another TLDR in this bitch.
If you use their highest values from stats, Scarlet win con would functionally be just one shotting Ikki with her higher AP, while Ikki’s would be mind haxing her to a point where she can resist and would have her psyche and soul shattered. Even with Ikki’s greater speed, Scarlet has way more options of controlling the battle. Her AOE is much bigger, her variety of attacks are larger, and her mobility is much greater. She has multiple methods of getting stronger overtime that are far more consistent than Ikki’s, and while not nearly as strong mentally as Ikki, she could at the very least resist some illusions long enough to get the hit she needs. On the chance she does die, she could possibly get off at least one revive to continue the fight and go straight for the kill in no uncertain terms.
Tertiary Factors
In terms of combat and skill, Ikki has a pretty solid edge in this field. Scarlet is by no means a novice and has shown adapting her skill in the middle of battle, but Ikki has more direct statements and showings of martial arts knowledge. He also regularly fights other Saints, all of whom are trained in many of the same martial arts and consistently is able to adapt and counter many of their skills. Scarlet’s line comparatively speaking usually is full of monsters with random powers rather than any dedicated martial arts training to them.
This carries over into their experiences in combat. Scarlet only began her time as a Precure at 14 and even with Precures weird sliding time scale giving her a lot of fights in that timeframe, she ended her time ventures at 14 years old and so far hasn’t had any adventures post EOS. Ikki meanwhile has been training and fighting since he was eight years old, and to this day still participates in many battles with other Saints.
Lastly, when it comes to sheer endurance it’s frankly no contest. Scarlet can survive some fatal hits for sure, but she has nothing compared to Ikki fighting while his senses are destroyed and his cells completely ruptured.
Conclusion
Cure Scarlet
Advantages:
Consistently stronger across the board
Greater variety of powers
Bigger AOE and mobility grants her better battlefield control
Can get stronger consistently through dream empowerment and zenkai boosts
Resurrection is more viable and useful in combat
The country of Italy
Disadvantages:
Far Slower with the highest ends
Mind resistance isn’t potent enough for Ikki’s peak illusions
Less experienced and skilled overall
Far worse stamina and endurance relative to Ikki
Less consistent defense
Toei
Phoenix Ikki
Advantages:
Notably faster with highest ends
Mind hax is more potent overall
Far greater endurance and combat skill
Phoenix Cloth is a more consistent form of defense
Eighth Sense can keep him going after his body is destroyed…
The country of Mexico
Disadvantages:
Consistently weaker by a noticeable margin which only gets bigger through Scarlet’s zenkai boosts
Has no counter to Scarlet’s dream absorption
Some mind tricks can be resisted by Scarlet
Much less variety in abilities
Worse AOE and inferior mobility give him less control over the fight
…but his actual resurrection would not be a factor if he is fully destroyed
Toei
This fight had a LOT of factors going into it, and I think it’s 100% fair to argue Ikki could pull through in some scenarios. When outline all the details and run through the numbers, the results end up more often than not favoring Cure Scarlet. Consistently Scarlet strength is simply too much for Ikki to deal with, especially with the multipliers and higher values, and she has more reliable methods of utilizing that advantage. Between AOE, attack variety, mobility, and constant ways of getting stronger, Scarlet would have plenty of ways to get the hit she needs even with Ikki’s much greater speed. While his mind hax is certainly destructive, her showings of resistance could hold off enough to not get completely annihilated on the first go. If all else fails, she would likely have one form of resurrection on the table to gain another chance and get the killshot she needs to win. The phoenix may rise from the ashes someday, but this time around, the Princess of Flames has clipped this bird's wings.
Wow this was a bigger doozy than I anticipated. I’d like to give shoutouts to Animator3003 who provided excellent work on the scaling images, background art and TN, Joshski for the Pretty Cure scaling images, combat set image, and a particular resurrection image. Both of them also took a look at the earlier parts of the blog to evaluate and provide an opinion on some aspects. Naturally the calcs that don’t belong to me I tip my hat to the original creators, namely the VBW Seiya Speed page by Matthew Schroeder. Despite it being old, it still had some numbers that held up and provided some translations for certain feats, namely the Hyperdimension calcs.
Lastly, thank you for reading this blog. It’s not exactly some big relevant mainstream characters but I thought it’d be fun so I hope this blog at least increased some level of interest in these series outside of a VS context.
This was really good, and surprisingly close.
ReplyDeleteI thought Saint Seiya characters were unbeatable LOL